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Actually, that was my point,Actually, that was my point, in that one can only look to the astronomical designations for these seasonal cycles, since the blooming of leaves and flowers and the nesting of birds occurs at so many different times, in so many different places. To clarify, I understand your point regarding the observable manifestation of the seasons, I was just saying the astronomical points remain the accurate measure of those seasons. The same applies to the modern tendency to think of the Summer Solstice as the "beginning" of the Summer season. Most modern calendars, and even most TV meteorologists, will say 21 June, for example, is when Summer starts. As we have both stated, this is dead wrong. The Summer cannot start when the Sun and the seasonal tides begin to wane, it's a contradiction. We'd may as well say Christmas starts on Christmas night and not on Christmas morning. At least on that point, it seems we are both in absolute agreement. I would also have to argue that astrology does indeed have its' scientific elements, especially considering the fact that our modern astronomy developed from the old science of astrology, same as our modern pharmacology developed from the old practises of herbal healing, and metallurgy developed from alchemy. There was a time when these practises went hand in hand, and were one in the same. Since astrology is based on the astronomical positions of the planets and their movements, I would call that a scientific element, even if it's only based on the observation of the movements. The interpretation of those movements and their alleged effect on us are, admittedly, debatable and not reliable science in the modern sense, but charting horoscopes by calculating the correct positions of the stars and planets, I would think, is indeed an effort founded in science. Of course, that's just my opinion, I really don't mean to be argumentative.

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